Yesterday I turned 54. Last year I said I was 35 and dyslexic. This year I am 45 and dyslexic. I can't use that line next year, and especially the four years after that. It was also my youngest daughter's 11th birthday. On top of that, my daughter Rose and I were born on my father's birthday. I have a cousin in Texas who shares the same birthday.
My father served in WW2 in Europe. Once a buddy and he were separated from their outfit in France, and they spent the night with a farmer and his wife. My father was so overwhelmed by the farmer's generosity and hospitality that he told the farmer and his wife that when he got back to the States, if he and his wife were to have a daughter, they were going to name it Colette, in honor of the farmer and his wife's very young daughter. That is how my sister got her name. Of course, my sister, who may be crazier than I, loves to embellish the story. She tells others that this farmer and his wife also had on their farm a donkey named Chris.
Actually, my parents were content with their two children, Colette and Gail, but Gail died at sixteen months as the result of a freak accident. This left my mom in a state of deep depression. The doctor told my dad that the only way to get her out of that was for her to have another child. That is how I came on the scene. Years later, in my version of the story, my dad and mom decided to sue the doctor for medical malpractice.
As always, my family rolled out the red carpet for my daughter and me yesterday. Actually, I kind of wish that my birthday was forgotten, especially by AARP that has been sending me stuff in the mail for over a year now.
September 17 was another birthday too. It was the birthday of the United States Constitution. Our form of government is 221 years old. That's pretty amazing, when one considers that it is the world's longest-running experiment in self-rule. I wonder how many Americans remembered this birthday. I wonder how many government or civic classes in high schools across our land pointed out this birthday to their students. I don't recall reading anything about this birthday in our newspaper, nor do I recall hearing anything about it on the evening news. I wonder how many elected officials remembered this birthday. Judging by how many of our state and national elected leaders legislate, I think many of them have never read this important document in their entire lives. How many voters who will go to the polls this November will have read the Constitution at any time in their lives? What a shame that this birthday was been forgotten. Maybe this explains to a large degree why our country is in its current shape.
The summer of 1787 in Philadelphia was riveting. The men who met to draft a new form of government over a course of weeks and months knew that the Articles of Confederation, that guided the infant country through the War of Independence, were simply unworkable. Shays' Rebellion in Massachusetts sounded alarm bells in the minds of leading Americans that something drastic had to be done. Winning independence from Britain, it turned out, was but the first step to becoming a nation. As John Adams had predicted, establishing a truly national government would be "the most intricate, the most important, the most dangerous and delicate business."
Four months after Americans marched into the mouths of cannon manned by other Americans, the Philadelphia Convention would meet to create a new national government. The current government under the Articles of Confederation had neither a consistent currency, nor a military force, nor the power to regulate trade, nor the power to levy taxes. Tensions ran extremely high during the summer of 1787. Large states were pitted against the small states. Slave-holding states were pitted against the non-slave holding states. Those who favored a much stronger central national government were pitted against those who revered states' rights. After all the dust had settled, after everyone had their say, and after all the labor pains that seemed would last forever, the United States Constitution was finally given birth. Our three branches of government with limited and defined powers have been at it now for over two centuries.
Not even Alexander Hamilton, our nation's first Secretary of Treasury, would have approved our nation's recent action to bail out certain companies, some of which were a weird hybrid of federal and private companies. What the founding fathers feared has slowly developed over the years that our country today bears little resemblance to what the framers of the Constitution had in mind. The Scriptures speak of our "honoring the king". The closest thing we have to a king in our set-up is the Constitution. An encroaching and expanding form of government has become so customary and expected that many do not see anything wrong with it at all; in fact, they would see something terribly wrong if the government does not step more in our lives and solve all our problems. The idolatry that we encounter is not the worship by Israelites of Baal like we see in the Old Testament, but the the worship by Americans of Big Brother like we see from city halls to the halls of Congress. Should we be surprised that as more and more people demand more hand-outs from Washington that fewer and fewer people will look to the hands of a good God?
Our founding fathers, for the most part, were very religious men, who had a biblical worldview of things. They knew that there was a God who would supply all our need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4:19) They did not believe that there should be any Government that would supply all our need and wishes and whims according to the riches in the U.S. Treasury in the nation's capital. They sincerely believed that the government that governs least, governs best. They also came from a Calvinistic understanding of the nature of man; the different checks and balances imposed by the three branches of government were the result of their view of the total depravity of man.
Judges who legislate from the bench have usurped a role that never belonged to them. Then to make matters worst, they find things in the Constitution that are not there, such as a woman's right to choose murder over life. Yes, it would be grand and glorious thing if we were to return to our founding documents by actually reading them, understanding them, and implementing them. Presidents, senators, representatives, governors, judges, mayors, citizens, voters, you name them, would greatly benefit if they would just "honor the king". Can we turn this ship around in time? I hope and pray so.
Our Constitution is not perfect, though. That is why there are provisions for amendments. That is why we have the Bill of Rights. The framers never said it was perfect, but they had an in-built mechanism to right all wrongs over time. That is why there is an amendment for prohibition, and that didn't work, so there is a follow-up amendment to overturn the amendment on prohibition. That is why slavery was eventually stamped out, although it could have been done without so much bloodshed. (That is the subject of a another article down the road, maybe! Just think that the casualties from the war in Iraq account for less than 1% of the casualties from the War Between the States.)
Our nation has forgotten a very important birthday. We are worse off because of that.
Now I need to take off my civics 101 hat for a moment, and put on a similar hat that says it would be a grand and glorious thing also if we believers in Christ would also remember the founding document of our faith, God's Holy Word. That document is perfect; no amendments are needed. Just as government "has gotten too big for its britches", have our churches become the same way, all at the expense of forgetting what God's Word really says about things? As a Southern Baptist, I keep wishing and hoping and praying that more and more Southern Baptists would remember their original confessions of faith, hammered out by its founders in 1845.
It is nice to remember people's birthdays, but I for one would gladly give up all my future birthdays (I know this is not a great sacrifice on my part!) if I could live to see the day when other more important birthdays are fondly cherished and held in the highest esteem.
Yours in Christ,
Chris
Thursday, September 18, 2008
Thursday, September 11, 2008
Five Years and Counting
At the urging of many friends in the summer of 2003, I began to explore the possibility of starting a church in Oklahoma City. As I shared this idea with a pastor friend, Vance Martin, he began to share that same desire and burden. So the second Sunday in September of that year, not knowing how we were going to do it or if it would ever get off the ground, Heartland Baptist Church of Oklahoma City had its first worship service in a downstairs conference room at the Hilton Hotel on NW Expressway. This makes this coming Sunday our fifth anniversary since we began as a church. Next month will mark our first anniversary in the sense we constituted as a church with an official membership list.
It's hard to believe that I have gone full circle. In 1981 my wife and I loaded all our belongings in a Jartran rental truck and upon graduation from seminary in Ft. Worth, Texas, we moved to north of Detroit, Michigan, to pastor in the start of a new church. We left Texas on January 2 in 75 degree weather. We arrived in Detroit on January 4 with the temperature at minus 12 and about a foot of snow on the ground. When some would ask me later if I ever had any second thoughts if I had done the right thing, I would say "yes", and all those thoughts occurred on January 4, 1981.
Now at middle age I have come back to where I began. The unwritten, but often assumed, process for a pastor is to start small and work oneself up the ladder to pastor bigger, more established churches as one gets older toward the retirement years. There is nothing wrong with that, I suppose, but for me, I could never be satisfied with having just a maintenance ministry at some place, even if the salary package was tempting. I need challenges, or I shrivel up on the inside.
There are naturally a lot of advantages that come with pastoring at a larger, more traditional church setting. For me and how I am wired, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, and I always have preferred the idea of starting a church from scratch. It is definitely not easy at times, but the rewards more than make up for the tough, lean times.
In the summer of 2003 before we had our first worship service, among the many things I did to prepare myself for this new church start, was to read John Piper's book, DON'T WASTE YOUR LIFE. If I ever had any doubts about starting a church at middle age, those doubts were completely erased after reading that book. God used that book to help me see that by living a comfortable, predictable Christian life would be a total waste. It is easy for Christians to fall into a rut where their faith is never stretched and where their walk is never bumpy. My flesh would much rather take up my cushion to follow Jesus, rather than to take up my cross and follow Jesus. As Vance Havner was fond of saying along these lines, "Get out on a limb. That is where all the fruit is anyway." It would be so much invigorating for more Christians if in their spiritual journey they would get out on a limb more.
Alex and Brett Harris, 19-year-old twin authors, say in their increasingly popular book, DO HARD THINGS, that teens are hungry for challenges, far more than they are given credit for. They define hard things as those that: take one outside one's comfort zone, go beyond what is expected and required, are too big to accomplish alone, don't earn an immediate payoff, and challenge the cultural norms. Perhaps more teens would attempt to do hard things if they were to see more adults attempt to do hard things.
A wise pastor in Michigan who became my mentor, who gets these email devotionals by the way, told me a couple of things in his counsel back in 1981 that has stuck with me to this day. One is that I should not be surprised if the people we end up with in a church start situation would be a completely different group than the group we started out with on day one. The other thing he told me is that it takes a special type of Christian--not meaning they were more holy or more spiritual--to be a part of a new church situation. For that person, he has to be willing to give up a lot of customary church amenities, like not having many organized programs or activities for their children, or like not having a church choir or top-notch music ministry, or like not having one's own church building, or like not having a paid church staff, or like living on a church budget shoestring. The real "heroes" of a new church start, from my way of looking at things, is not the pastor or pastors involved, but the faithful, steady, committed group of folks who make up the body of a new church start. Bro. Vance and I feel very privileged to be surrounded by a great bunch of loving heroes each Lord's Day.
All this brings me to what has prompted me to write these articles from week to week. I looked around and saw that a lot of churches spend a lot of advertising dollars on making their church known by highlighting its special attractions that might appeal to folks. A new church does not have a lot of money to spend on advertising dollars, but email sure is affordable. Secondly, I have always had a problem with standard operating procedures where churches try to put their best foot forward. "Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; someone else, and not your own lips." (Proverbs 27:2)
I send out emails regularly to our own church members that detail about things that are happening in our church, but I wanted to send out something else to a much wider audience that has more to deal with eternal truths rather than giving a plug about our church. Our church and your church may or may not be around in five more years, but God's Word "abideth still." What is sorely lacking in a lot of church literature is anything of biblical substance. Regardless if a person comes to our church or not, I want through my writing and all our church literature to teach truths that are life-changing and that will be around forever, for "to say something relevant, one must say something that is eternal."
So in another five years, if the Lord wills it, I may write another blog similar to this one, but until then, I want to get back to what I love best, and that is the communication of those things that are eternally relevant.
Yours in Christ,
Chris
P.S. I just dawned on me as I finish this before dawn on Sept. 11, that seven years ago today when our country was attacked, I was getting ready to leave home in Crescent to drive to Del City for a pastors' fellowship that was meeting at a church where Vance Martin was the pastor. Little did we know then the plans the Lord would have for us together almost two years later to the day.
It's hard to believe that I have gone full circle. In 1981 my wife and I loaded all our belongings in a Jartran rental truck and upon graduation from seminary in Ft. Worth, Texas, we moved to north of Detroit, Michigan, to pastor in the start of a new church. We left Texas on January 2 in 75 degree weather. We arrived in Detroit on January 4 with the temperature at minus 12 and about a foot of snow on the ground. When some would ask me later if I ever had any second thoughts if I had done the right thing, I would say "yes", and all those thoughts occurred on January 4, 1981.
Now at middle age I have come back to where I began. The unwritten, but often assumed, process for a pastor is to start small and work oneself up the ladder to pastor bigger, more established churches as one gets older toward the retirement years. There is nothing wrong with that, I suppose, but for me, I could never be satisfied with having just a maintenance ministry at some place, even if the salary package was tempting. I need challenges, or I shrivel up on the inside.
There are naturally a lot of advantages that come with pastoring at a larger, more traditional church setting. For me and how I am wired, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, and I always have preferred the idea of starting a church from scratch. It is definitely not easy at times, but the rewards more than make up for the tough, lean times.
In the summer of 2003 before we had our first worship service, among the many things I did to prepare myself for this new church start, was to read John Piper's book, DON'T WASTE YOUR LIFE. If I ever had any doubts about starting a church at middle age, those doubts were completely erased after reading that book. God used that book to help me see that by living a comfortable, predictable Christian life would be a total waste. It is easy for Christians to fall into a rut where their faith is never stretched and where their walk is never bumpy. My flesh would much rather take up my cushion to follow Jesus, rather than to take up my cross and follow Jesus. As Vance Havner was fond of saying along these lines, "Get out on a limb. That is where all the fruit is anyway." It would be so much invigorating for more Christians if in their spiritual journey they would get out on a limb more.
Alex and Brett Harris, 19-year-old twin authors, say in their increasingly popular book, DO HARD THINGS, that teens are hungry for challenges, far more than they are given credit for. They define hard things as those that: take one outside one's comfort zone, go beyond what is expected and required, are too big to accomplish alone, don't earn an immediate payoff, and challenge the cultural norms. Perhaps more teens would attempt to do hard things if they were to see more adults attempt to do hard things.
A wise pastor in Michigan who became my mentor, who gets these email devotionals by the way, told me a couple of things in his counsel back in 1981 that has stuck with me to this day. One is that I should not be surprised if the people we end up with in a church start situation would be a completely different group than the group we started out with on day one. The other thing he told me is that it takes a special type of Christian--not meaning they were more holy or more spiritual--to be a part of a new church situation. For that person, he has to be willing to give up a lot of customary church amenities, like not having many organized programs or activities for their children, or like not having a church choir or top-notch music ministry, or like not having one's own church building, or like not having a paid church staff, or like living on a church budget shoestring. The real "heroes" of a new church start, from my way of looking at things, is not the pastor or pastors involved, but the faithful, steady, committed group of folks who make up the body of a new church start. Bro. Vance and I feel very privileged to be surrounded by a great bunch of loving heroes each Lord's Day.
All this brings me to what has prompted me to write these articles from week to week. I looked around and saw that a lot of churches spend a lot of advertising dollars on making their church known by highlighting its special attractions that might appeal to folks. A new church does not have a lot of money to spend on advertising dollars, but email sure is affordable. Secondly, I have always had a problem with standard operating procedures where churches try to put their best foot forward. "Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; someone else, and not your own lips." (Proverbs 27:2)
I send out emails regularly to our own church members that detail about things that are happening in our church, but I wanted to send out something else to a much wider audience that has more to deal with eternal truths rather than giving a plug about our church. Our church and your church may or may not be around in five more years, but God's Word "abideth still." What is sorely lacking in a lot of church literature is anything of biblical substance. Regardless if a person comes to our church or not, I want through my writing and all our church literature to teach truths that are life-changing and that will be around forever, for "to say something relevant, one must say something that is eternal."
So in another five years, if the Lord wills it, I may write another blog similar to this one, but until then, I want to get back to what I love best, and that is the communication of those things that are eternally relevant.
Yours in Christ,
Chris
P.S. I just dawned on me as I finish this before dawn on Sept. 11, that seven years ago today when our country was attacked, I was getting ready to leave home in Crescent to drive to Del City for a pastors' fellowship that was meeting at a church where Vance Martin was the pastor. Little did we know then the plans the Lord would have for us together almost two years later to the day.
Thursday, September 4, 2008
Do Christians Really Believe in Hell (even when they say they do)?
In all my previous articles, the attention has been on unbelievers and their inborn, God-given inclinations to believe in an afterlife and even a lasting place of deserved justice called hell, no matter how strenuous their vocal political correctness may say otherwise. God truly has put eternity in the hearts of men, so that means all the arguments for hell previously made come straight from heaven. With all that being said, one would naturally think that Christians and churches would capitalize on these arguments plus the more sure-footed argument from the authority of God's Word on the subject. One would think that we would not be timid or tepid when we approach this subject. Consider the few following observations:
1. The Old Testament speaks about God's wrath some 600 times, and it uses 20 different Hebrew words to do so.
2. The New Testament speaks about God's wrath too, and its teaching is more terrible and frightening. In the Old Testament God's wrath is largely confined to acts of temporal punishment upon obstinate, disobedient people. In the New Testament the emphasis shifts very strongly toward eternal punishment.
3. There is more written in biblical revelation about His anger than His love.
4. Of the 1870 verses from the lips of Jesus, 13% are about judgment and hell.
5. Of the 40 parables that Jesus tells, over one half relate to eternal judgment.
6. Of the twelve times that "Gehenna" (hell) is mentioned in the New Testament, 11 of them come from Jesus Himself.
7. For those who want only the Ethical Teacher/Pacifist Jesus from the Sermon on the Mount have to wrestle with what this Jesus says in His straight talk express from that Sermon, such as warning people of "the fire of hell" (Matthew 5:22), the danger of being "thrown into hell" (Matthew 5:29), and the need to turn from "the road that leads to destruction." (Matthew 7:13)
So much so for the idea that we have an angry, vindictive "God" of the Old Testament, and we have a nicer, kinder "Jesus" of the New Testament. God does not have a split personality, nor has He mellowed over time. He is the same loving, sin-hating, holy God of the New Testament as He is in the Old Testament. Our God changes not, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever.
For several Sundays in our Sunday morning Bible study time at our church, we looked at the far-reaching wide biblical teaching on eternal judgment from the three "hell" words, which are Sheol, Hades and Gehenna. Many Christians may not be aware of the shades of difference among those three words and what immediately transpires after one's death and at the future end-time judgment before God. (Surely that can not be because we have been derelict in teaching on the subject, or that we would dare tip-toe around such harsh-sounding, non-seeker-sensitive language, right? or not right?)
At one time I thought I would spend some time in these articles in going over what we covered on Sundays, but I decided to go in a different direction. If I just barely touched upon a twentieth of what we covered on Sundays and of what the Bible teaches on the matter of eternal judgment, then if you think these articles are too long now with too many continuing parts, then you would not know what to think of I just sent a rough outline on the doctrine of hell. This teaching is not hidden in some obscure passages in 3 Chronicles or Hezekiah. It is there for all pastors, youth ministers, Sunday School teachers, elders, deacons, evangelists, Bible college instructors and seminary professors to find for themselves and to teach it to others under their care. It is there for every Christian to find for himself, even when others avoid it like the plague.
So the question is no longer along the lines of whether people in general really believe in hell, even when they say they don't, but the question has to be with all this biblical data at our fingertips is whether Christians really believe in hell, even when they say they do. Silence on the subject speaks volumes. If judgment begins with the household of God, then we could narrow that down and say that judgment begins with the household of God on its silence on the judgment of God.
Brian McLaren is a name you need to familiarize yourself with these days. He is pastor, speaker, author and leader in the so-called Emergent Church Movement, which takes the Seeker-Sensitive and Purpose-Driven model a step further. He is a bosom buddy of Rick Warren and Bill Hybels and has spoken at their respective churches on numerous occasions. Both Warren and Hybels praise McLaren to no end.
Recently at Hybels' church in South Barrington, Illinois, McLaren said that many of our traditional doctrines need some serious revision. He wrote about such things in his 2007 book, "Everything Must Change", in which he argues that the doctrine of hell needs radical rethinking, because people who believe in hell may be inclined to dominate and take advantage of other people rather than help them. If we quickly pass off McLaren as some sort of nut job out in left field all by himself, then we greatly underestimate his wide influence in evangelical circles. When McLaren speaks, it may surprise us who is listening, even at churches here in the Bible Belt of America.
I know of a great many Christians who will vigorously nod their heads in agreement when asked if they believe in the sovereignty of God, but when the matter is pressed all the way to the salvation of sinners, then somehow God loses a significant part of His sovereignty. I know of a great many Christians who will vigorously nod their heads in agreement when asked if they believe in an eternal hell, but when the matter is pressed all the way to defining who actually goes to hell forever and why, then somehow the population of hell decreases to a trickle. Do today's Christians really believe in hell, even when they say they do?
Why would a good, loving God send people to hell, though? The answer is that God does not send people to hell. He sends sinners to hell. Furthermore, if we reject the Bible's teaching on hell, how can we trust its teaching on the mercy of God, the gift of forgiveness, and the hope of eternal life? Pretty soon then, I will have to do a follow-up series on "DO CHRISTIANS REALLY BELIEVE IN HEAVEN, even when they say they do?"
Yours in Christ,
Chris
1. The Old Testament speaks about God's wrath some 600 times, and it uses 20 different Hebrew words to do so.
2. The New Testament speaks about God's wrath too, and its teaching is more terrible and frightening. In the Old Testament God's wrath is largely confined to acts of temporal punishment upon obstinate, disobedient people. In the New Testament the emphasis shifts very strongly toward eternal punishment.
3. There is more written in biblical revelation about His anger than His love.
4. Of the 1870 verses from the lips of Jesus, 13% are about judgment and hell.
5. Of the 40 parables that Jesus tells, over one half relate to eternal judgment.
6. Of the twelve times that "Gehenna" (hell) is mentioned in the New Testament, 11 of them come from Jesus Himself.
7. For those who want only the Ethical Teacher/Pacifist Jesus from the Sermon on the Mount have to wrestle with what this Jesus says in His straight talk express from that Sermon, such as warning people of "the fire of hell" (Matthew 5:22), the danger of being "thrown into hell" (Matthew 5:29), and the need to turn from "the road that leads to destruction." (Matthew 7:13)
So much so for the idea that we have an angry, vindictive "God" of the Old Testament, and we have a nicer, kinder "Jesus" of the New Testament. God does not have a split personality, nor has He mellowed over time. He is the same loving, sin-hating, holy God of the New Testament as He is in the Old Testament. Our God changes not, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever.
For several Sundays in our Sunday morning Bible study time at our church, we looked at the far-reaching wide biblical teaching on eternal judgment from the three "hell" words, which are Sheol, Hades and Gehenna. Many Christians may not be aware of the shades of difference among those three words and what immediately transpires after one's death and at the future end-time judgment before God. (Surely that can not be because we have been derelict in teaching on the subject, or that we would dare tip-toe around such harsh-sounding, non-seeker-sensitive language, right? or not right?)
At one time I thought I would spend some time in these articles in going over what we covered on Sundays, but I decided to go in a different direction. If I just barely touched upon a twentieth of what we covered on Sundays and of what the Bible teaches on the matter of eternal judgment, then if you think these articles are too long now with too many continuing parts, then you would not know what to think of I just sent a rough outline on the doctrine of hell. This teaching is not hidden in some obscure passages in 3 Chronicles or Hezekiah. It is there for all pastors, youth ministers, Sunday School teachers, elders, deacons, evangelists, Bible college instructors and seminary professors to find for themselves and to teach it to others under their care. It is there for every Christian to find for himself, even when others avoid it like the plague.
So the question is no longer along the lines of whether people in general really believe in hell, even when they say they don't, but the question has to be with all this biblical data at our fingertips is whether Christians really believe in hell, even when they say they do. Silence on the subject speaks volumes. If judgment begins with the household of God, then we could narrow that down and say that judgment begins with the household of God on its silence on the judgment of God.
Brian McLaren is a name you need to familiarize yourself with these days. He is pastor, speaker, author and leader in the so-called Emergent Church Movement, which takes the Seeker-Sensitive and Purpose-Driven model a step further. He is a bosom buddy of Rick Warren and Bill Hybels and has spoken at their respective churches on numerous occasions. Both Warren and Hybels praise McLaren to no end.
Recently at Hybels' church in South Barrington, Illinois, McLaren said that many of our traditional doctrines need some serious revision. He wrote about such things in his 2007 book, "Everything Must Change", in which he argues that the doctrine of hell needs radical rethinking, because people who believe in hell may be inclined to dominate and take advantage of other people rather than help them. If we quickly pass off McLaren as some sort of nut job out in left field all by himself, then we greatly underestimate his wide influence in evangelical circles. When McLaren speaks, it may surprise us who is listening, even at churches here in the Bible Belt of America.
I know of a great many Christians who will vigorously nod their heads in agreement when asked if they believe in the sovereignty of God, but when the matter is pressed all the way to the salvation of sinners, then somehow God loses a significant part of His sovereignty. I know of a great many Christians who will vigorously nod their heads in agreement when asked if they believe in an eternal hell, but when the matter is pressed all the way to defining who actually goes to hell forever and why, then somehow the population of hell decreases to a trickle. Do today's Christians really believe in hell, even when they say they do?
Why would a good, loving God send people to hell, though? The answer is that God does not send people to hell. He sends sinners to hell. Furthermore, if we reject the Bible's teaching on hell, how can we trust its teaching on the mercy of God, the gift of forgiveness, and the hope of eternal life? Pretty soon then, I will have to do a follow-up series on "DO CHRISTIANS REALLY BELIEVE IN HEAVEN, even when they say they do?"
Yours in Christ,
Chris
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